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Price list enhancements


Hi folks,

I'm going to be adding functionality for price lists to be sorted in a custom order, and permit the user to arrange the items in the price list in a hierarchical tree format, as many items in eGW/pERP can be.  The reason for this is that price lists can then be used as the primary source of stock data to directly drive a custom website or store.  My current client requires complete integration with their multiple eBay and Amazon stores, as well as their own range of websites.

They sell almost all the same stock at different prices in different stores, so by allowing them to add metadata to categorise the price lists, an export process can be used to take the price lists and run them through custom filters to drive the content in these stores.  Obviously I would only then need to create one filter for eBay, one for Amazon and one for all their websites (which use the same backend system), and those three filters can drive all their store content from generic input.

I'm keen on thoughts and ideas on the best way to achieve this.  Any advice or words of warning?

Kindest thanks,
Paul

p.s., the client wants full integration with their sites, eBay and Amazon stores; and that includes retrieving orders and creating them in pERP.  This would see a reverse process to take place, where a n import filter can be used to change multiple source formats in to generic pERP data that's usable.

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Re: Price list enhancements

On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 6:20 PM, WLD <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'm going to be adding functionality for price lists to be sorted in a custom order, and permit the user to arrange the items in the price list in a hierarchical tree format, as many items in eGW/pERP can be.

I'd like to see the custom order, and it shouldn't be hard to do.  I'm
curious to see how you do the hierarchical stuff, as the pricing in
pERP is already annoyingly complex.

> ... custom filters to drive the content in these stores.  Obviously I would only then need to create one filter for eBay, one for Amazon and one for all their websites (which use the same backend system), and those three filters can drive all their store content from generic input.
>
> I'm keen on thoughts and ideas on the best way to achieve this.  Any advice or words of warning?

I'm not sure I follow the need for extra metadata, but I guess it
depends on what sort of items you're selling.  Is there no acceptable
way to map your metadata to sales categories?

I'd advise using one price list per site (per category), then look
into the price calculations to keep them up to date (if there's any
plan to how they price).  The design for the pricing system should be
able to handle multiple sales areas (might map well to websites),
multiple levels per area (A,B,C level customers), multiple sales
categories, multiple currencies, with items and pricing different for
each combination.  They couldn't just use a multiplier... that would
be easy.
Maybe all those different combinations should be changed to use a more
flexible category system?  I'm open to suggestions.

Nathan

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Re: Price list enhancements

On Friday 19 Feb 2010 05:01:50 Nathan Gray wrote:
> I'd like to see the custom order, and it shouldn't be hard to do.  I'm
> curious to see how you do the hierarchical stuff, as the pricing in
> pERP is already annoyingly complex.


Hi Nathan,

SAP is *annoyingly* complex.  pERP is just complex.  :)

Yes some parts of the price list are complex.  If it wasn't for the virtual machine allowing me to become a time-lord of sorts, I doubt I ever would have figured out how it works lol  Being able to take a snapshot in time, make my changes, go forward to the future to try them out, and rewinding back to my snapshot as if it never happened was truly invaluable.  I know I'm always singing the praises of virtualisation but I don't know if enough people yet really get how amazingly helpful it is to developers!  I got the price list stuff licked in under a day because of that.


> I'm not sure I follow the need for extra metadata, but I guess it
> depends on what sort of items you're selling.  Is there no acceptable
> way to map your metadata to sales categories?

The custom order *is* the metadata, it won't link to anything additional.  It will just form part of the export, and become the hierarchical categories/product ranges which the products sit in.

Don't forget that my current client is more retail than manufacturing.  As all their shops fall in to one of three types (eBay, Amazon or website), I need only create 3 filters which can take the price list data (the products, their details, price, the categories they sit in - and the category metadata) and mash it up in to a format that the target wants.  As there are 4 eBay stores, one eBay filter can be used to cater for all four.  eBay only wants data sending to it in one format regardless of which store you're updating.  This approach is far more flexible and reusable than custom writing a filter for each actual price list.  It will also allow other users to integrate pERP with their own eBay and Amazon stores.  I doubt though the website filter will be of any use to anybody else as my client uses their own ecommerce websites that are custom made and no other user of pERP will use the same system.  But having pERP price lists drive your eBay/Amazon stores is a good feature to behold.


> I'd advise using one price list per site (per category), then look
> into the price calculations to keep them up to date (if there's any
> plan to how they price).  The design for the pricing system should be
> able to handle multiple sales areas (might map well to websites),
> multiple levels per area (A,B,C level customers), multiple sales
> categories, multiple currencies, with items and pricing different for
> each combination.  They couldn't just use a multiplier... that would
> be easy.
> Maybe all those different combinations should be changed to use a more
> flexible category system?  I'm open to suggestions.

This is how things stand with their configuration...

Sales Areas:
xxx eBay store
yyy Amazon store
zzz eBay store
aaa Custom website
bbb eBay store
ccc Custom website
ddd Amazon store
etc.

Sales Types:
Retail
Trade

Sales Categories:
Default


The sales categories isn't really needed by this clients configuration so everything sits in a Default entry.  With the configuration above there are 7 x 2 x 1 = 14 possible price lists.  Not too bad for a retailer with so many outlets, and the trade prices are only available on a few stores.  Because some stores contain all their stock, and some stores are selling a specific brand (and thus only contain a small amount of their total inventory), they need to be able to choose how the products are categorised on that particular store.

Their websites may be categories by product type: "plain widget" or "super widget".  The custom hierarchical ordering I've suggested will form the basis of this, and all the products in the price list will fall in to one, or both, of the "plain widget" or "super widget" categories.

Additionally, they have an eBay store which specialises in only selling "plain widget".  In this instance, their custom hierarchical ordering would be best categorised by manufacturer brand.  So their categories specific to that price list may be "Brand X", "Brand Y" and "Brand Z".

...

To use a real-life fake example, WalMart company decides pERP is so great they want to use it.  They sell their products on their website and they have a few eBay stores too.  Their website lists ALL their inventory, so it's categorised by what the product actually is.  Categorising it alphabetically would mean that Nettle Soup was next to Newspapers.  Nonsensical at best!  So in their price list they now create Food -> Frozen -> Ready Meals.  They also have Food -> Fast Food -> Ready Meals category, and all their TV dinners are mapped to both categories in that price list.  When it's exported to their main website, all the categories appear with all their products inside them, and some products are found in more than one place - just like in a real store.

WalMart has two eBay stores, one selling just ready meals and one selling anything that's frozen food.  Their ready meals store will be categorised by what flavour meal is.  Having them all in one category called Ready Meals would be pretty pointless.  So the price list for this store has categories in like Fish Supper, Macaroni and Cheese, Lasagne, etc. etc.  So when this price list is exported to this eBay store, the subset of inventory (just ready meals) is now categorised for this store by flavour.

On their second eBay store selling all their frozen food, they sell a bit more stock than just ready meals in the store above, so it's daft to categorise everything by flavour.  So they have categories for Ice Cream, Lobsters and also again have a category for Ready Meals as it is a frozen foodstuff.

So looking at their inventory, they have one fish supper TV dinner from one supplier.  In WalMarts own inventory it's filed away in an obscure category called "Long life microwave frozen meals".  That's never published.  But in the price lists, that same product is sold in 3 different stores, for 3 different prices.  Each store has that product listed in a category which is custom to that price list and where that price list will be published to.  The system I am proposing to create shortly would enable this fish supper to sit in different categories for different price lists, regardless of how their inventory actually has it categorised for internal management.  No sales point lists different goods alphabetically, it would be madness to do so.

I hope I've made sense with all of this.  Please let me know if you would like any clarification.  I will leave it with you to ponder.

Kindest thanks,
Paul

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Re: Price list enhancements

On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 11:57 PM, WLD <[hidden email]> wrote:
> ...
> SAP is *annoyingly* complex.  pERP is just complex.  :)

Touché.  pERP's got nothing on SAP.

>
> Yes some parts of the price list are complex.  If it wasn't for the virtual machine allowing me to become a time-lord of sorts,
> ...
>  I got the price list stuff licked in under a day because of that.

I wish I had that.  It never even occurred to me, but being able to
jump around would be so helpful.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yK3tTGB72jE


> ...
> I hope I've made sense with all of this.  Please let me know if you would like any clarification.  I will leave it with you to ponder.

Looks fine to me, as long as you know that inventory items can
currently be in more than one sales category (only one stock category
though).  It does seem like what pERP does currently doesn't quite
match up to what you need.  I just don't want anyone spending time
duplicating something or doing extra work because I haven't documented
it.
I'm really looking forward to the Amazon/eBay integration.

Nathan

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Justin F. Hallett Justin F. Hallett
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Re: Price list enhancements

I love virtuals, but when you have production on the same box it becomes more of a nuance, this is were once again a full dev box is handy as hell ;) though in theory we could have had multiple virtuals on one box to split that ;)  Ah that hind sight thing again ;)
---
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I.T. Manager
http://www.goarctic.com/
Tel: (780) 789-2626 ext.323
Cel: (780) 935-9771
Fax: (780) 789-2624


On 2010-02-19, at 10:21 AM, Nathan Gray wrote:

>>
>> Yes some parts of the price list are complex.  If it wasn't for the virtual machine allowing me to become a time-lord of sorts,
>> ...
>> I got the price list stuff licked in under a day because of that.
>
> I wish I had that.  It never even occurred to me, but being able to
> jump around would be so helpful.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yK3tTGB72jE


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Re: Price list enhancements

In reply to this post by Nathan Gray

On Friday 19 Feb 2010 17:21:26 Nathan Gray wrote:
> Touché.  pERP's got nothing on SAP.

Have you ever used any SAP stuff?!  It's slow, cumbersome, annoying and filled with bugs.  pERP vs SAP ERP, I will choose pERP any day!


> I wish I had that.  It never even occurred to me, but being able to
> jump around would be so helpful.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yK3tTGB72jE

lol @ hens.  The product I would recommend is Virtual Box by Sun.  It's easy to install and use, and allows you to run virtual machines right from within the desktop (unless you choose to have them headless and use VNC or RDP to view them).  Additionally Virtual Box can put your network card in to promiscuous mode, and assign the Virtual Machine an IP address.  I have eGW+pERP installations running and simply connect to them as if it were a computer on another network, and other computers on the network can connect to my Virtual Machine as if it was a real computer.  Do definitely look in to it, the benefits for developers are numerous and good.


> Looks fine to me, as long as you know that inventory items can
> currently be in more than one sales category (only one stock category
> though).  It does seem like what pERP does currently doesn't quite
> match up to what you need.  I just don't want anyone spending time
> duplicating something or doing extra work because I haven't documented
> it.

Even if the inventory items can be put in to more than one sales category, that's still with regards only to their INTERNAL catalogue, made up from hen-pecking at their supplier catalogues.  But the way they choose to categorise their own catalogue for internal use doesn't have any relation as to how they would categorise the stock items (or any subset thereof) with regards to how they present them to the customer to buy.

Like in my previous example, if WalMart decided to open a store selling just TV dinners, it would make sense for them to be categorised for that particular store by flavour.  But internally they certainly wouldn't categorise their entire inventory catalogue by flavour.  Well I certainly hope not!

That's why there needs to be a way to create a custom hierarchical category management systems for the products in a particular price list.  There has to be a separation between categorisation for internal management and separation for marketing of the price list.  Maybe because my current client is more retail-focused this need hasn't arisen yet in pERP, but it's a very straight forward change and I hope a very beneficial one.

I too do share some concerns that the price list system may be getting a bit too complex, but from my point of view, it makes sense - as I'm sure you also agree with.  To a beginner, the inside of a 747 cockpit may look overwhelmingly complex.  But in reality, it's as simple and logically laid out as it possibly can be given the tasks that need to be performed.  And the cockpit is a highly critical area so it certainly won't be made any more complex or confusing than it has to be.

With enough documentation, learning and experience, that complex cockpit can become straight-forward and even second nature.  This is true pERP's price lists too.


> I'm really looking forward to the Amazon/eBay integration.
> Nathan

I too am looking forward to this.  I'll probably also create a filter to allow the publishing of price lists directly to Froogle.  That would allow anybody who retails on their own custom websites to get their products indexed easier and hopefully drive up sales.

In a way I feel that the price lists hit a dead-end after you've created them.  Whilst I understand there's no need to print them off to give to your sales reps, there should definitely be a way to get the information flowing easier out pERP in to other systems.  Perhaps to clients who would use your price list as a supplier catalogue, just as you use the catalogues of your suppliers.  It's becoming ever more common for suppliers to create feeds of their catalogue data.

Kindest regards,
Paul

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Re: Price list enhancements

In reply to this post by Justin F. Hallett
On Friday 19 Feb 2010 17:46:08 Justin F. Hallett wrote:
> I love virtuals, but when you have production on the same box it becomes more of a nuance, this is were once again a full dev box is handy as hell ;) though in theory we could have had multiple virtuals on one box to split that ;)  Ah that hind sight thing again ;)

Hi Jusin,

Virtualisation is supposed to do away with unnecessary hardware, not be an excuse to buy more! lol  I always run server environments as VMs now, so a spare hot copy is standing by no matter what damage has been done to the operating system.  Additionally the latest Virtual Box can move a live VM guest from one host (physical machine) to another!

As for development, it's enabled me to do away with hardware which is only used a few hours of the day.  I've been able to consolidate 5 physical machines in to one physical machine and 5 VMs.  Not only is virtualisation providing untold development advantages, it's saving me money - and making me money, through the sale of redundant expensive hardware.  It has serious benefits in business now it's moved away from just being a hobby product and has turned in to enterprise-grade critical system architecture.

I'm interested in what system you use to replace pERP with?

Kindest regards,
Paul

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Re: Price list enhancements

In reply to this post by WLD
On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 7:44 PM, WLD <[hidden email]> wrote:
> ...
> Have you ever used any SAP stuff?!  It's slow, cumbersome, annoying and filled with bugs.  pERP vs SAP ERP, I will choose pERP any day!

Please feel free to publish that opinion as part of an honest review:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/perp/
http://www.ohloh.net/p/projecterp
:-D

>...
> I too do share some concerns that the price list system may be getting a bit too complex, but from my point of view, it makes sense - as I'm sure you also agree with.  To a beginner, the inside of a 747 cockpit may look overwhelmingly complex.  But in reality, it's as simple and logically laid out as it possibly can be given the tasks that need to be performed.  And the cockpit is a highly critical area so it certainly won't be made any more complex or confusing than it has to be.

Great example.  It looks complex because it can be a complex problem.


> In a way I feel that the price lists hit a dead-end after you've created them.

That is entirely correct.  Blue Falls had no interest in publishing
their prices in any way other than paper, and that was never a high
enough priority to get a nice paper catalogue report.  They also had
no interest in making pricing available to anyone other than their
established dealers.  I think that when presented with a system that
allowed the complexity they were doing on paper, it caused the "This
is too complicated, we'll just keep using Excel" syndrome.  Even
though it took a week or two to change and send prices in Excel.

> ... there should definitely be a way to get the information flowing easier out pERP in to other systems.  Perhaps to clients who would use your price list as a supplier catalogue, just as you use the catalogues of your suppliers.  It's becoming ever more common for suppliers to create feeds of their catalogue data.

For years I've wanted to put in an API, so at the minimum pERPs can
talk to each other.  Best would be to implement GDSN
(http://www.gs1.org/gdsn) or something similar; I hate proprietary
limitations when there are standards.  When I last checked 8 months
ago, it was almost possible to participate in the chain entirely with
OSS (http://www.freebxml.org/).

Nathan

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Re: Price list enhancements


Hi Nathan,

There will be plenty of time for reviews later but in the mean time there's lots of enhancements to work on which I'm sure we're all quite excited about.  Maybe you should create an updated roadmap for a release and we can add publicity as an item on it?  It will give us a chance to plan out the various things that are being worked on and discussed now.

I have some materials to contribute with regards to training and migration which I believe are vital to start giving the project a more polished and professional finish.  These sorts of things can generate less favourable reviews if they aren't present.  Perhaps it wouldn't do any harm to setup a facebook fan page, a twitter account, make sure the project is listed on softpedia and freshmeat etc. etc.  Also if you got a PayPal donation pot setup I'm sure you would find help towards the hosting and domain costs etc.  Sure as in certain.



> Great example.  It looks complex because it can be a complex problem.

I'm full of analogies am I :)



> > In a way I feel that the price lists hit a dead-end after you've created them.
>
> That is entirely correct.  Blue Falls had no interest in publishing
> their prices in any way other than paper, and that was never a high
> enough priority to get a nice paper catalogue report.  They also had
> no interest in making pricing available to anyone other than their
> established dealers.  I think that when presented with a system that
> allowed the complexity they were doing on paper, it caused the "This
> is too complicated, we'll just keep using Excel" syndrome.  Even
> though it took a week or two to change and send prices in Excel.
>
> > ... there should definitely be a way to get the information flowing easier out pERP in to other systems.  Perhaps to clients who would use your price list as a supplier catalogue, just as you use the catalogues of your suppliers.  It's becoming ever more common for suppliers to create feeds of their catalogue data.
>
> For years I've wanted to put in an API, so at the minimum pERPs can
> talk to each other.  Best would be to implement GDSN
> (http://www.gs1.org/gdsn) or something similar; I hate proprietary
> limitations when there are standards.  When I last checked 8 months
> ago, it was almost possible to participate in the chain entirely with
> OSS (http://www.freebxml.org/).

I'm going to go through this in more depth when I have the opportunity.  It all sounds very promising and I'm all for standardisation of information flow.  But as the saying goes, the good thing about standards is there's so many to choose from.

I'm liking how the OASIS group offer most their specification documents in proprietary file formats and not their own ODT format lol


The price list bits I'm working on at the moment will enable the publishing of data in standard formats.  At the moment the filters I'm creating will push data out in formats for eBay, Amazon and Froogle.  Each destination has a specific format.  But there's nothing at all stopping the creation of filters for GSDN and OASIS formats.

There's all sorts of bits I need to contribute back to the trunk but some of these require changes in eGW and won't work in pERP without my custom changes.  Would you sponsor me as an eGW junior?

Kindest regards,
Paul

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Re: Price list enhancements

On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 7:47 PM, WLD <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> There's all sorts of bits I need to contribute back to the trunk but some of these require changes in eGW and won't work in pERP without my custom changes.  Would you sponsor me as an eGW junior?

My first thought was "I can't do that", but hey, look at that.  I'm an
eGW senior now.
I'll need a brief blurb / resume and at least a starter task list,
according to http://www.egroupware.org/index.php?page_name=wiki&lang=&wikipage=NewMembers.

I'm also a little concerned that you've reported trouble getting your
changes committed in the past.  What name do you use in the tracker
(http://www.egroupware.org/patches)?  I can start by looking at those
if they'll still apply.

Nathan

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Re: Price list enhancements


Hi Nathan,

I will supply the requested bits as time allows.  Can my "starter task list" be relevant to pERP, and can that be things I've already done? :)

I haven't had problems getting changes committed in the past, just having looked at the long winded process to get involved with eGW specifically I have simply avoided submitting changes.  I have been hoarding the upgrades for myself.  I do desire to share but it's just constraints of time and exactly how many hoops I'm willing to jump through.  It is on my list of things to get sorted though.

I will get back to you on this as there's some more immediate stuff to sort out.

Cheers,
Paul


On Tuesday 23 Feb 2010 18:03:32 Nathan Gray wrote:
> My first thought was "I can't do that", but hey, look at that.  I'm an
> eGW senior now.
> I'll need a brief blurb / resume and at least a starter task list,
> according to http://www.egroupware.org/index.php?page_name=wiki&lang=&wikipage=NewMembers.
> I'm also a little concerned that you've reported trouble getting your
> changes committed in the past.  What name do you use in the tracker
> (http://www.egroupware.org/patches)?  I can start by looking at those
> if they'll still apply.
> Nathan

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