more Tine press releases, violating the status quo

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
29 messages Options
12
Ralf Becker Ralf Becker
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

more Tine press releases, violating the status quo

Just got an other link about a Tine press release:

http://www.pro-linux.de/news/2008/12301.html

@Lars+Conny: Do you do that delibrately?

Ralf


-- 
eGroupWare Training & Support ==> http://www.egroupware-support.de
Outdoor Unlimited Training GmbH [http://www.outdoor-training.de]
Geschäftsführer: Ralf und Birgit Becker
Leibnizstr. 17
67663 Kaiserslautern

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
_______________________________________________
eGroupWare-core mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/egroupware-core
Lutz Falkenburg (irrsinn.de gmbh) Lutz Falkenburg (irrsinn.de gmbh)
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: more Tine press releases, violating the status quo

@admins, what else must happen?

LF

irrsinn.de gmbh
Im Dorfe 38
99489 Hottelstedt

 

Fon: 036452/18954
Fax: 036452/18956

 

 

Eingetragen beim AG Jena HRB 113980
Geschäftsführer: Lutz Falkenburg




-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
_______________________________________________
eGroupWare-core mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/egroupware-core
jaytraxx jaytraxx
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: more Tine press releases, violating the status quo

In reply to this post by Ralf Becker
Hi community (don't know if I should use this word any longer),

I know, there have been made rules, agreements, and so on. Some make
sense, some not I think.

But why are you all getting so ugly now? Is it really so bad to have
news about tine on other sites? I haven't heard much about eGroupware on
the news the last time, so the articles were really "good news" in my ears.

Is your major goal now to get rid of those two "re-inventers" Lars and
Conny? I hope not.

It's really annoying to see how much hassle comes into the project,
mostly from posts of our german non-developers which, from my point of
view, have no right to accuse the two of our 3 most active developers
(and YES, they ARE active, they do a big part of the innovation at the
moment, and without innovation the project will not have a real chance
against its competitors).

Why are you all so afraid about the tine-thingy? Do you fear to loose
some of your costumers? If that's the point, I'm really sad. I think, if
the tine-project really successes, you all have so many customers that
you need some more employees.

So don't cut off one's nose to spite one's face.
(For our german friends: schneidet Euch bitte nicht ins eigene Fleisch)

Greetings
Christian



Ralf Becker schrieb:

> Just got an other link about a Tine press release:
>
> http://www.pro-linux.de/news/2008/12301.html
>
> @Lars+Conny: Do you do that delibrately?
>
> Ralf
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> --
> eGroupWare Training & Support ==> http://www.egroupware-support.de
> Outdoor Unlimited Training GmbH [http://www.outdoor-training.de]
> Geschäftsführer: Ralf und Birgit Becker
> Leibnizstr. 17
> 67663 Kaiserslautern
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
> Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008.
> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> eGroupWare-core mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/egroupware-core


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
_______________________________________________
eGroupWare-core mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/egroupware-core
Lutz Falkenburg (irrsinn.de gmbh) Lutz Falkenburg (irrsinn.de gmbh)
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: more Tine press releases, violating the status quo


Am 08.02.2008 um 09:19 schrieb Christian Binder:

> Hi community (don't know if I should use this word any longer),
>
> I know, there have been made rules, agreements, and so on. Some make
> sense, some not I think.
>

It is not a matter of sense its a matter of commitment and trust.

> But why are you all getting so ugly now? Is it really so bad to have
> news about tine on other sites?

No, not if others could think this is the only future of egroupware if  
somepart of the community thinks its not and if everyone involved to  
it has comitted each user to some rules both parts have accepted!


> I haven't heard much about eGroupware on
> the news the last time, so the articles were really "good news" in  
> my ears.
>

If you think tine is the right way - sure. Not if you not convinced in  
tine.

> Is your major goal now to get rid of those two "re-inventers" Lars and
> Conny? I hope not.
>

If they were re-inventers, integrating themselves, without fooling  
others, holding their own commitments - sure...
But this all they are not. And every week something happens to proove  
their illoyability. They are discrediting people, try to keep  
different minded people out of their way and using any tricks to  
manipulate and disinform the community.


> It's really annoying to see how much hassle comes into the project,
> mostly from posts of our german non-developers which, from my point of
> view, have no right to accuse the two of our 3 most active developers
> (and YES, they ARE active, they do a big part of the innovation at the
> moment, and without innovation the project will not have a real chance
> against its competitors).
>

You stated someting interesting. As you understand the constitution  
only a person who writes code is a "developer" - but this is wrong!  
Let us take a closer look at it:

   
Preamble

The Open Source Groupware Suite eGroupWare is a comunity effort,  
developed by people for their own enjoyment or to make their living  
from it. The ultimate instance in the eGroupWare project are these  
developers. Developers are as well people writing code, as people  
translating, creating documentation or art-work. We acknowledge a  
project can only be successfull if it picks up the wishes and needs of  
it's users AND it's developers.

So, I am an developer - AND of course a user as well!
So my wishes and needs have also to be picked up as the wishes and  
needs of lars and conny. (Its not my fault that many others not  
stating their opinion.) And these are only two - and look at the  
discussions - how many people seems to be developers and how less are  
really interested in egroupware and tine and discussing about it. Lars  
and Conny tried and still are trying to get the control over  
egroupware.org - They can do what they want - even their own branch -  
thats clear but they were never allowed to tell everybody THEY are THE  
ONLY future of egroupware fully legitimated of the admins, the  
developers AND the users! There were no excuses from their side. Still  
they try to get minds manipulated in may ways. Spreading wrong  
informations, breaking rules - is that ok from your point of view?

> Why are you all so afraid about the tine-thingy? Do you fear to loose
> some of your costumers? If that's the point, I'm really sad. I  
> think, if
> the tine-project really successes, you all have so many customers that
> you need some more employees.
>

I am not afraid in new technology. I am afraid about the way someone  
tried to change it and the picture it gives me how these guys are  
minded. Its not a question of technics its a question of character.  
Tine looks nice but it seems to be something like an Microsoft Access  
Application - some mouseclicks and it looks like revolution. But if  
you dig in deeper it is just cosmetics no real thing.... So at the  
moment I am not able to say, if tine is really powerful. In the moment  
you can not compare them both because tine is "notepad" and egroupware  
ist "open office" - so, what would you like to compare?
And Lars and Conny are no constants in egroupware - ralf is trying to  
keep on further and further, correcting bugs without loosing the  
contact to the past. Lars and Conny get in struggle and from one  
moment to the other they throw all away - not only throwing the past  
away, telling everybody they are the only ones. But I am getting  
redundant - sorry.

> So don't cut off one's nose to spite one's face.
> (For our german friends: schneidet Euch bitte nicht ins eigene  
> Fleisch)
>

Nice. But future needs history. And continuity is more than innovation  
(innovation is needed - but well calculated and wisely integrated) -  
egroupware is no fastfood. People trust in it.


Greeting
Lutz (ubertroll)


> Greetings
> Christian
>
>
>
> Ralf Becker schrieb:
>> Just got an other link about a Tine press release:
>>
>> http://www.pro-linux.de/news/2008/12301.html
>>
>> @Lars+Conny: Do you do that delibrately?
>>
>> Ralf
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> --
>> eGroupWare Training & Support ==> http://www.egroupware-support.de
>> Outdoor Unlimited Training GmbH [http://www.outdoor-training.de]
>> Geschäftsführer: Ralf und Birgit Becker
>> Leibnizstr. 17
>> 67663 Kaiserslautern
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
>> Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008.
>> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> eGroupWare-core mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/egroupware-core
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
> Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008.
> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
> _______________________________________________
> eGroupWare-core mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/egroupware-core


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
_______________________________________________
eGroupWare-core mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/egroupware-core
Ralf Becker Ralf Becker
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: more Tine press releases, violating the status quo

In reply to this post by jaytraxx
Hi Christian,

the rules, as you call it, were made for certain still valid reasons:

- not to create the wrong impression, Tine is the accepted future codeline
(I know they mentioned it in the press release, but psychology tells us
clearly, that this get's far less recognized)
- repeating something over and over, does not make it more true, but in
times of Google & Co. gives it the majority of the results

I'm happy to have the decision, which will be the future code line soon (in
December we were told it should be in February), and then we can have all
sorts of press releases.

In my personal opinion I can only say, Tine has not convinced me any more in
the time passing since December. None of my concerns have been addressed.
But of cause that's a decision of the people behind Tine and not mine.

Ralf

"Christian Binder" <[hidden email]> schrieb:
> Hi community (don't know if I should use this word any longer),
>
> I know, there have been made rules, agreements, and so on. Some make
> sense, some not I think.
>
> But why are you all getting so ugly now? Is it really so bad to have
> news about tine on other sites? I haven't heard much about eGroupware on
> the news the last time, so the articles were really "good news" in my
ears.

>
> Is your major goal now to get rid of those two "re-inventers" Lars and
> Conny? I hope not.
>
> It's really annoying to see how much hassle comes into the project,
> mostly from posts of our german non-developers which, from my point of
> view, have no right to accuse the two of our 3 most active developers
> (and YES, they ARE active, they do a big part of the innovation at the
> moment, and without innovation the project will not have a real chance
> against its competitors).
>
> Why are you all so afraid about the tine-thingy? Do you fear to loose
> some of your costumers? If that's the point, I'm really sad. I think, if
> the tine-project really successes, you all have so many customers that
> you need some more employees.
>
> So don't cut off one's nose to spite one's face.
> (For our german friends: schneidet Euch bitte nicht ins eigene Fleisch)
>
> Greetings
> Christian
>
>
>
> Ralf Becker schrieb:
>> Just got an other link about a Tine press release:
>>
>> http://www.pro-linux.de/news/2008/12301.html
>>
>> @Lars+Conny: Do you do that delibrately?
>>
>> Ralf
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> --
>> eGroupWare Training & Support ==> http://www.egroupware-support.de
>> Outdoor Unlimited Training GmbH [http://www.outdoor-training.de]
>> Geschäftsführer: Ralf und Birgit Becker
>> Leibnizstr. 17
>> 67663 Kaiserslautern
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
>> Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008.
>> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> eGroupWare-core mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/egroupware-core
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
> Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008.
> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
> _______________________________________________
> eGroupWare-core mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/egroupware-core
>

--
-- eGroupWare Training & Support ==> http://www.egroupware-support.deOutdoor
Unlimited Training GmbH [http://www.outdoor-training.de]Geschäftsführer:
Ralf und Birgit BeckerLeibnizstr. 1767663 Kaiserslautern</pre>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
_______________________________________________
eGroupWare-core mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/egroupware-core
Lars Kneschke-2 Lars Kneschke-2
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: more Tine press releases, violating the status quo

In reply to this post by jaytraxx
"Christian Binder" <[hidden email]> schrieb:
> Is your major goal now to get rid of those two "re-inventers" Lars and
> Conny? I hope not.

Hello Christian!

That's also something I don't understand. What's the goal of this
activities?

The project has currently 3 full time developers(Cornelius, Thomas and me)
and 1 mostly full time developer(Ralf). Also if we are currently not working
on the old codebase, we are still working for the future of eGroupWare. We
are trying to show, how the future eGroupWare codebase can look like.

If the goal is to drop us out of the project, I can't see how the situation
for eGroupWare will improve with only one mostly full time developer left.

--
Lars Kneschke
CTO OfficeSpot.Net
Metaways Infosystems GmbH
Pickhuben 2-4, D-20457 Hamburg

eGroupWare Support: http://www.egroupware-support.net
OfficeSpot.Net Collaboration Server: http://cs.officespot.net
our proposal for the next major eGroupWare release: http://www.tine20.org

E-Mail: mailto:[hidden email]
Web: http://www.metaways.de
Tel: +49 (0)40 317031-21
Fax: +49 (0)40 317031-921
Mobile: +49 (0)175 9304324

Metaways Infosystems GmbH - Sitz: D-22967 Tremsbüttel
Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Ahrensburg HRB 4508
Geschäftsführung: Hermann Thaele, Lüder-H.Thaele



-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
_______________________________________________
eGroupWare-core mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/egroupware-core
Lars Kneschke-2 Lars Kneschke-2
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: more Tine press releases, violating the status quo

In reply to this post by Ralf Becker
"Ralf Becker" <[hidden email]> schrieb:
> Hi Christian,
>
> the rules, as you call it, were made for certain still valid reasons:
>
> - not to create the wrong impression, Tine is the accepted future codeline
> (I know they mentioned it in the press release, but psychology tells us
> clearly, that this get's far less recognized)
Hello Ralf!

Of course Tine 2.0 is not the accepted codeline for eGroupWare currently.
And I'm also aware that not all developers simply can drop all their work
into the trashcan. But we are developing concepts, which can be used to
modernize the old eGroupWare code.

For that reason we also stated clearly in the news on the eGroupWare.org
website, that Tine 2.0 is an experimental branch of eGroupWare.
--
Lars Kneschke
CTO OfficeSpot.Net
Metaways Infosystems GmbH
Pickhuben 2-4, D-20457 Hamburg

eGroupWare Support: http://www.egroupware-support.net
OfficeSpot.Net Collaboration Server: http://cs.officespot.net
our proposal for the next major eGroupWare release: http://www.tine20.org

E-Mail: mailto:[hidden email]
Web: http://www.metaways.de
Tel: +49 (0)40 317031-21
Fax: +49 (0)40 317031-921
Mobile: +49 (0)175 9304324

Metaways Infosystems GmbH - Sitz: D-22967 Tremsbüttel
Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Ahrensburg HRB 4508
Geschäftsführung: Hermann Thaele, Lüder-H.Thaele



-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
_______________________________________________
eGroupWare-core mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/egroupware-core
Lars Kneschke-2 Lars Kneschke-2
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: more Tine press releases, violating the status quo

In reply to this post by Ralf Becker
"Ralf Becker" <[hidden email]> schrieb:
> In my personal opinion I can only say, Tine has not convinced me any more
in
> the time passing since December. None of my concerns have been addressed.
> But of cause that's a decision of the people behind Tine and not mine.

In my personal opinion I can only say, eGroupWare 1.x has not convinced me
any more in
the time passing since December. None of my concerns have been addressed.
But of cause that's a decision of the people behind eGroupWare 1.x and not
mine.

Ralf, that's nit-piking.

You rejected our requests to modernize the current eGroupWare codebase and
now you are grumbling because we don't fulfil your requests in the Tine 2.0
codebase.
--
Lars Kneschke
CTO OfficeSpot.Net
Metaways Infosystems GmbH
Pickhuben 2-4, D-20457 Hamburg

eGroupWare Support: http://www.egroupware-support.net
OfficeSpot.Net Collaboration Server: http://cs.officespot.net
our proposal for the next major eGroupWare release: http://www.tine20.org

E-Mail: mailto:[hidden email]
Web: http://www.metaways.de
Tel: +49 (0)40 317031-21
Fax: +49 (0)40 317031-921
Mobile: +49 (0)175 9304324

Metaways Infosystems GmbH - Sitz: D-22967 Tremsbüttel
Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Ahrensburg HRB 4508
Geschäftsführung: Hermann Thaele, Lüder-H.Thaele



-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
_______________________________________________
eGroupWare-core mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/egroupware-core
ManfredU ManfredU
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: more Tine press releases, violating the status quo

In reply to this post by Lars Kneschke-2
Hi Lars,

Lars Kneschke <[hidden email]> schrieb am Sat, 9 Feb 2008
08:38:11 +0100:

> "Ralf Becker" <[hidden email]> schrieb:
> > Hi Christian,
> >
> > the rules, as you call it, were made for certain still valid
> > reasons:
> >
> > - not to create the wrong impression, Tine is the accepted future
> > codeline (I know they mentioned it in the press release, but
> > psychology tells us clearly, that this get's far less recognized)
> Hello Ralf!
>
> Of course Tine 2.0 is not the accepted codeline for eGroupWare
> currently. And I'm also aware that not all developers simply can drop
> all their work into the trashcan. But we are developing concepts,
> which can be used to modernize the old eGroupWare code.
>
> For that reason we also stated clearly in the news on the
> eGroupWare.org website, that Tine 2.0 is an experimental branch of
> eGroupWare.

Read your own press release again. It doesn't contain the word
'experimental'. Instead you emphasize 'official subproject' several
times and thereby create the false impression that the decision, that
Tine will be the future technological base of eGW, has already been
made by the project as a whole.

I really appreciate your effort to modernize eGW, but IMO you should
also take into account that the other project members, who are not yet
fully convinced of your proposal, need some kind of protection of their
investment into the existing framework. This is essential and it would
be good if you could stop ignoring this. And it is also to your own
advantage if the customers are still using eGW at the time when Tine
may be ready for productive use. It's not good if you base all your
decisions on the displeasing quarrel which occured.

IMO eGW indeed needs a double-track approach, but members of both
groups really should consider the interests of the opposite side as
well. Please don't act against each other, but settle your differences,
make agreements with the necessary allowances and stick to them. The
project has only a chance of you build the future together.

Kind regards,
Manfred


> --
> Lars Kneschke
> CTO OfficeSpot.Net
> Metaways Infosystems GmbH
> Pickhuben 2-4, D-20457 Hamburg
>
> eGroupWare Support: http://www.egroupware-support.net
> OfficeSpot.Net Collaboration Server: http://cs.officespot.net
> our proposal for the next major eGroupWare release:
> http://www.tine20.org
>
> E-Mail: mailto:[hidden email]
> Web: http://www.metaways.de
> Tel: +49 (0)40 317031-21
> Fax: +49 (0)40 317031-921
> Mobile: +49 (0)175 9304324
>
> Metaways Infosystems GmbH - Sitz: D-22967 Tremsbüttel
> Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Ahrensburg HRB 4508
> Geschäftsführung: Hermann Thaele, Lüder-H.Thaele
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
> Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008.
> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
> _______________________________________________
> eGroupWare-core mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/egroupware-core


--
________________________________________________________________________
 Manfred Usselmann                            [hidden email]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
_______________________________________________
eGroupWare-core mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/egroupware-core
jaytraxx jaytraxx
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: more Tine press releases, violating the status quo

In reply to this post by Lutz Falkenburg (irrsinn.de gmbh)
Hi Lutz,

Lutz Falkenburg (irrsinn.de gmbh) schrieb:
> Am 08.02.2008 um 09:19 schrieb Christian Binder:
>
>> Hi community (don't know if I should use this word any longer),
>>
>> I know, there have been made rules, agreements, and so on. Some make
>> sense, some not I think.
>>
>
> It is not a matter of sense its a matter of commitment and trust.

For me, the SENSE, remains the most important part. Sure, they broke
rules, but it makes me angry how you deal with really import people for
the project: "Hey, look!! They did something wrong...". I would prefer
to look at the things they do well, and that's a really big part.

>
>> But why are you all getting so ugly now? Is it really so bad to have
>> news about tine on other sites?
>
> No, not if others could think this is the only future of egroupware if  
> somepart of the community thinks its not and if everyone involved to  
> it has comitted each user to some rules both parts have accepted!
>
>
>> I haven't heard much about eGroupware on
>> the news the last time, so the articles were really "good news" in  
>> my ears.
>>
>
> If you think tine is the right way - sure. Not if you not convinced in  
> tine.
>
>> Is your major goal now to get rid of those two "re-inventers" Lars and
>> Conny? I hope not.
>>
>
> If they were re-inventers, integrating themselves, without fooling  
> others, holding their own commitments - sure...
> But this all they are not. And every week something happens to proove  
> their illoyability. They are discrediting people, try to keep  
> different minded people out of their way and using any tricks to  
> manipulate and disinform the community.
>

It's not true that they "manipulate" and "disinform" the community.

>
>> It's really annoying to see how much hassle comes into the project,
>> mostly from posts of our german non-developers which, from my point of
>> view, have no right to accuse the two of our 3 most active developers
>> (and YES, they ARE active, they do a big part of the innovation at the
>> moment, and without innovation the project will not have a real chance
>> against its competitors).
>>
>
> You stated someting interesting. As you understand the constitution  
> only a person who writes code is a "developer" - but this is wrong!  
> Let us take a closer look at it:
>
>    
> Preamble
>
> The Open Source Groupware Suite eGroupWare is a comunity effort,  
> developed by people for their own enjoyment or to make their living  
> from it. The ultimate instance in the eGroupWare project are these  
> developers. Developers are as well people writing code, as people  
> translating, creating documentation or art-work. We acknowledge a  
> project can only be successfull if it picks up the wishes and needs of  
> it's users AND it's developers.
>
> So, I am an developer - AND of course a user as well!

You're right. Sorry, I apologize for that.

> So my wishes and needs have also to be picked up as the wishes and  
> needs of lars and conny. (Its not my fault that many others not  
> stating their opinion.) And these are only two - and look at the  
> discussions - how many people seems to be developers and how less are  
> really interested in egroupware and tine and discussing about it. Lars  
> and Conny tried and still are trying to get the control over  
> egroupware.org - They can do what they want - even their own branch -  
> thats clear but they were never allowed to tell everybody THEY are THE  
> ONLY future of egroupware fully legitimated of the admins, the  
> developers AND the users! There were no excuses from their side. Still  
> they try to get minds manipulated in may ways. Spreading wrong  
> informations, breaking rules - is that ok from your point of view?
>
>> Why are you all so afraid about the tine-thingy? Do you fear to loose
>> some of your costumers? If that's the point, I'm really sad. I  
>> think, if
>> the tine-project really successes, you all have so many customers that
>> you need some more employees.
>>
>
> I am not afraid in new technology. I am afraid about the way someone  
> tried to change it and the picture it gives me how these guys are  
> minded. Its not a question of technics its a question of character.  
> Tine looks nice but it seems to be something like an Microsoft Access  
> Application - some mouseclicks and it looks like revolution. But if  
> you dig in deeper it is just cosmetics no real thing.... So at the  
> moment I am not able to say, if tine is really powerful. In the moment  
> you can not compare them both because tine is "notepad" and egroupware  
> ist "open office" - so, what would you like to compare?

You're degrading the importance of an UI too much. For me, the UI is a
really important thing, and also for the user. So, a good UI makes an
application really powerful. Not only, but it's a big part.

> And Lars and Conny are no constants in egroupware - ralf is trying to  
> keep on further and further, correcting bugs without loosing the  
> contact to the past. Lars and Conny get in struggle and from one  
> moment to the other they throw all away - not only throwing the past  
> away, telling everybody they are the only ones. But I am getting  
> redundant - sorry.

Please consider the work they have done, besides Ralf of course, from
1.2. to 1.4.

>
>> So don't cut off one's nose to spite one's face.
>> (For our german friends: schneidet Euch bitte nicht ins eigene  
>> Fleisch)
>>
>
> Nice. But future needs history. And continuity is more than innovation  
> (innovation is needed - but well calculated and wisely integrated) -  
> egroupware is no fastfood. People trust in it.

Yeah, you're right and I don't say that tine is the only way. I just try
to make your minds up to not think just bad about tine. It could be a
real chance for eGW and my wish is that we support the people behind it
  a bit and not accuse them every time there is a chance for it. Could we?

Then I'll be happy again :-)



>
>
> Greeting
> Lutz (ubertroll)
>
>

Also Greetings
Christian
(hey, what is "ubertroll"? I can't find it in my dictionary, but it
sounds funny :-)


>> Greetings
>> Christian
>>
>>
>>
>> Ralf Becker schrieb:
>>> Just got an other link about a Tine press release:
>>>
>>> http://www.pro-linux.de/news/2008/12301.html
>>>
>>> @Lars+Conny: Do you do that delibrately?
>>>
>>> Ralf
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> --
>>> eGroupWare Training & Support ==> http://www.egroupware-support.de
>>> Outdoor Unlimited Training GmbH [http://www.outdoor-training.de]
>>> Geschäftsführer: Ralf und Birgit Becker
>>> Leibnizstr. 17
>>> 67663 Kaiserslautern
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
>>> Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008.
>>> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> eGroupWare-core mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/egroupware-core
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
>> Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008.
>> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
>> _______________________________________________
>> eGroupWare-core mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/egroupware-core
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
> Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008.
> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
_______________________________________________
eGroupWare-core mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/egroupware-core
Lars Kneschke-2 Lars Kneschke-2
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: more Tine press releases, violating the status quo

"Christian Binder" <[hidden email]> schrieb:

> Lutz Falkenburg (irrsinn.de gmbh) schrieb:
>> Am 08.02.2008 um 09:19 schrieb Christian Binder:
>> You stated someting interesting. As you understand the constitution  
>> only a person who writes code is a "developer" - but this is wrong!  
>> Let us take a closer look at it:
>>
>>            
>> Preamble
>>
>> The Open Source Groupware Suite eGroupWare is a comunity effort,  
>> developed by people for their own enjoyment or to make their living  
>> from it. The ultimate instance in the eGroupWare project are these  
>> developers. Developers are as well people writing code, as people  
>> translating, creating documentation or art-work. We acknowledge a  
>> project can only be successful if it picks up the wishes and needs of  
>> it's users AND it's developers.
>>
>> So, I am an developer - AND of course a user as well!
>
> You're right. Sorry, I apologize for that.
Hello Christian!

Lutz might feel himself as a developer, but I don't see how he fit into the
preamble.

He didn't write any code.
Did he translate something?
We are still waiting for his knowledge base articles. I think since 2 years
already. So he did also write no documentation.
And only because he paid the pictures for the eGroupWare.org page, I would
no say that he created any art-work.

Lutz has taken very much from the eGroupWare community, but has nothing
given back.

Even if he matches some of the criteria, at the end the PHP developers
decide, which code they write. Of course the project can only be successful
if we listen to the users demands. But the users don't write any code.
--
Lars Kneschke
CTO OfficeSpot.Net
Metaways Infosystems GmbH
Pickhuben 2-4, D-20457 Hamburg

eGroupWare Support: http://www.egroupware-support.net
OfficeSpot.Net Collaboration Server: http://cs.officespot.net
our proposal for the next major eGroupWare release: http://www.tine20.org

E-Mail: mailto:[hidden email]
Web: http://www.metaways.de
Tel: +49 (0)40 317031-21
Fax: +49 (0)40 317031-921
Mobile: +49 (0)175 9304324

Metaways Infosystems GmbH - Sitz: D-22967 Tremsbüttel
Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Ahrensburg HRB 4508
Geschäftsführung: Hermann Thaele, Lüder-H.Thaele



-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
_______________________________________________
eGroupWare-core mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/egroupware-core
luchs3 luchs3
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: more Tine press releases, violating the status quo

In reply to this post by Lars Kneschke-2
Hi,

I'm an egw user and told my boss to use egw in his company.
I think I should wait to implement it until you three came down and find a decision, because I don't want to use a dead program.
The only thing I can say is, that we need nearly every application in egw.
If you want to flush the whole code and the database, it will take about a few years to become as big as egw is now.
Tine looks cool and this way is not wrong but I think it would be better to find a compromise between the old coldebase and the new look.
It's of probably more work than rewrite the program but you wont loose developers and users.
The last thing I want to say is that it would be irresponsible to tell the current egw users that the future release wont be compatible to their installations.


Lars Kneschke-2 wrote
"Christian Binder" <christian@jaytraxx.de> schrieb:
> Is your major goal now to get rid of those two "re-inventers" Lars and
> Conny? I hope not.

Hello Christian!

That's also something I don't understand. What's the goal of this
activities?

The project has currently 3 full time developers(Cornelius, Thomas and me)
and 1 mostly full time developer(Ralf). Also if we are currently not working
on the old codebase, we are still working for the future of eGroupWare. We
are trying to show, how the future eGroupWare codebase can look like.

If the goal is to drop us out of the project, I can't see how the situation
for eGroupWare will improve with only one mostly full time developer left.

--
Lars Kneschke
CTO OfficeSpot.Net
Metaways Infosystems GmbH
Pickhuben 2-4, D-20457 Hamburg

eGroupWare Support: http://www.egroupware-support.net
OfficeSpot.Net Collaboration Server: http://cs.officespot.net
our proposal for the next major eGroupWare release: http://www.tine20.org

E-Mail: mailto:l.kneschke@metaways.de
Web: http://www.metaways.de
Tel: +49 (0)40 317031-21
Fax: +49 (0)40 317031-921
Mobile: +49 (0)175 9304324

Metaways Infosystems GmbH - Sitz: D-22967 Tremsbüttel
Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Ahrensburg HRB 4508
Geschäftsführung: Hermann Thaele, Lüder-H.Thaele



-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
_______________________________________________
eGroupWare-core mailing list
eGroupWare-core@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/egroupware-core
Lars Kneschke-2 Lars Kneschke-2
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: more Tine press releases, violating the status quo

In reply to this post by ManfredU
"Manfred Usselmann" <[hidden email]> schrieb:
> Read your own press release again. It doesn't contain the word
> 'experimental'. Instead you emphasize 'official subproject' several
> times and thereby create the false impression that the decision, that
> Tine will be the future technological base of eGW, has already been
> made by the project as a whole.
Ok. That's an impression. But that was not our intention. There are several
places where we state very clearly, that we are yet experimental. And we
also did not state that we are the future code base for eGroupWare. We also
call us Tine 2.0. And not eGroupWare 2.0 anymore.

> I really appreciate your effort to modernize eGW, but IMO you should
> also take into account that the other project members, who are not yet
> fully convinced of your proposal, need some kind of protection of their
> investment into the existing framework. This is essential and it would
> be good if you could stop ignoring this. And it is also to your own
> advantage if the customers are still using eGW at the time when Tine
> may be ready for productive use. It's not good if you base all your
> decisions on the displeasing quarrel which occurred.
Just have look at the time line again. We had a meeting with Ralf and Nigel
to talk about how we can improve the current codebase. It was our intention
to work on eGroupWare 1.4. They rejected our ideas in general and insulted
us. That's the reason why have started Tine 2.0. There would have been no
Tine 2.0 project and no discussion, if they would not have rejected our
ideas in general. They would not have to protect their investments, because
we had been improving their investments.
I don't ignore their investments, but I can also not ignore my investments,
if you like to call it like that.
They also stated that are still working on eGroupWare 1.x codeline. Of
course this situation is strange. But the project admins can't solve the
problem, by simply ignoring Tine 2.0.

> IMO eGW indeed needs a double-track approach, but members of both
> groups really should consider the interests of the opposite side as
> well. Please don't act against each other, but settle your differences,
> make agreements with the necessary allowances and stick to them. The
> project has only a chance of you build the future together.
I'm very open to any agreement. As long as it does not mean, that we need
get invisible again. We are also part of the eGroupWare project.

--
Lars Kneschke
CTO OfficeSpot.Net
Metaways Infosystems GmbH
Pickhuben 2-4, D-20457 Hamburg

eGroupWare Support: http://www.egroupware-support.net
OfficeSpot.Net Collaboration Server: http://cs.officespot.net
our proposal for the next major eGroupWare release: http://www.tine20.org

E-Mail: mailto:[hidden email]
Web: http://www.metaways.de
Tel: +49 (0)40 317031-21
Fax: +49 (0)40 317031-921
Mobile: +49 (0)175 9304324

Metaways Infosystems GmbH - Sitz: D-22967 Tremsbüttel
Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Ahrensburg HRB 4508
Geschäftsführung: Hermann Thaele, Lüder-H.Thaele



-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
_______________________________________________
eGroupWare-core mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/egroupware-core
ManfredU ManfredU
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: more Tine press releases, violating the status quo

Hi Lars,

Lars Kneschke <[hidden email]> schrieb am Sat, 9 Feb 2008
11:00:12 +0100:

> > IMO eGW indeed needs a double-track approach, but members of both
> > groups really should consider the interests of the opposite side as
> > well. Please don't act against each other, but settle your
> > differences, make agreements with the necessary allowances and
> > stick to them. The project has only a chance of you build the
> > future together.
>
> I'm very open to any agreement. As long as it does not mean, that we
> need get invisible again.

Well, you agreed to remain invisible to the public (not to the
developer community) until the presentation and the subsequent
discussion of your technologie preview has generated a decision of the
whole project team. IMO this made a lot of sense to avoid creating too
much uncertainty among customers and users in a phase where the final
outcome of this process is anyhow still very unclear. And I believe it
is no unreasonable burden for you to continue to adhere to this
agreement for a little while. The presentation of your prototype had
anyhow been planned for this month therefore the end of this phase
should be near.

You mentioned that you need to postpone this presentation.
Maybe you can give us some more details und explain the situation a
little bit? Have you come across any unforeseen technical issues? Or is
it just a minor delay as a result of the usual time restraints we all
suffer from from time to time? When do you expect it to become ready
according to your current planning?

I myself would also be interested to know what exactly to expect from
your prototype. What are your criteria which define the readiness for
the discussion and voting? What do you want to achive until then?

> We are also part of the eGroupWare project.

That's a good thing. :-)

Manfred


--
________________________________________________________________________
 Manfred Usselmann                            [hidden email]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
_______________________________________________
eGroupWare-core mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/egroupware-core
Lutz Falkenburg (irrsinn.de gmbh) Lutz Falkenburg (irrsinn.de gmbh)
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: more Tine press releases, violating the status quo

In reply to this post by Lars Kneschke-2

Am 09.02.2008 um 10:40 schrieb Lars Kneschke:

"Christian Binder" <[hidden email]> schrieb:
Lutz Falkenburg (irrsinn.de gmbh) schrieb:
So, I am an developer - AND of course a user as well!

You're right. Sorry, I apologize for that.

Lutz might feel himself as a developer, but I don't see how he fit into the
preamble.


As far as I know, I did graphical work, bought the picture on for website...
Lars keep facts as they are!

He didn't write any code.

Thats right but the preamble mentioned that not only codewriters are developers!


Did he translate something?

No, did you do any graphical work?


We are still waiting for his knowledge base articles. I think since 2 years
already. So he did also write no documentation.
And only because he paid the pictures for the eGroupWare.org page, I would
no say that he created any art-work.


What is with the logo? :)


Lutz has taken very much from the eGroupWare community, but has nothing
given back.


Lars you are trying to take the whole community at the moment!


Even if he matches some of the criteria, at the end the PHP developers
decide, which code they write.

Thats right - but this is not the problem with at the moment... 


Of course the project can only be successful
if we listen to the users demands. But the users don't write any code.


Lutz


--
Lars Kneschke
CTO OfficeSpot.Net
Metaways Infosystems GmbH
Pickhuben 2-4, D-20457 Hamburg

eGroupWare Support: http://www.egroupware-support.net
OfficeSpot.Net Collaboration Server: http://cs.officespot.net
our proposal for the next major eGroupWare release: http://www.tine20.org

E-Mail: [hidden email]
Web: http://www.metaways.de
Tel: +49 (0)40 317031-21
Fax: +49 (0)40 317031-921
Mobile: +49 (0)175 9304324

Metaways Infosystems GmbH - Sitz: D-22967 Tremsbüttel
Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Ahrensburg HRB 4508
Geschäftsführung: Hermann Thaele, Lüder-H.Thaele



-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
_______________________________________________
eGroupWare-core mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/egroupware-core

irrsinn.de gmbh
Im Dorfe 38
99489 Hottelstedt
 
Fon: 036452/18954
Fax: 036452/18956
 
http://www.irrsinn.de
eMail: [hidden email]
 
Eingetragen beim AG Jena HRB 113980
Geschäftsführer: Lutz Falkenburg

IT-Antiquariat mit Garantie: http://www.irrsinn.de/shop
40.000 Artikel vorrätig: http://www.irrsinn.liefert-es.com
Wir beseitigen E-Müll: http://www.defendix.net


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
_______________________________________________
eGroupWare-core mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/egroupware-core
Oscar van Eijk-3 Oscar van Eijk-3
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: more Tine press releases, violating the status quo

In reply to this post by jaytraxx
Cristian for president :) Did I mention that before?

I cannot post to the core list, and considering my status in the project
(a developer, but not very active), I shouldn't. Still, I wanna give my
point of view, so I hope this mail gets moderated while it's still a
useful contribution.

First of all, if there's a mailing list meant for only the core
developers, make sure only the core developers can post to it AND
receive those mails; many 'lurkers' (including me 'til now) have a lot
of questions (and maybe answers?) but cannot provide input.
An open source project needs a few people that can pull the project;
it's simply impossible to have 40 people all taking decisions in
harmony, IMHO this group of core people needs a place for normal
discussions. Such a place doesn't exist.
I know I shouldn't have subscribed to this list in the first place, but
the simple fact is, I did, so did many others, and an internal
discussion is now open on the street. Either move to the developers
list, or make it really internal.

What I'm talking about is the personal part of the discussion. Lars
keeps mentioning the fact he doesn't seem to think Nigel is the kind of
teamplayer the project needs, and that's personal.
I don't think it's useful to vote about new project members; if Nigel
can make good contributions to the project (the 2006 developers days
roved to me he can), he's welcome, but so are Lars and Conny (and the
other Metaways developers). We are an OPEN source community; check
Wikipedia for definitions.
However, I DO believe a small group (usually called admins :) should be
able to remove people when they are acting against the interests of the
project, but that's something different; everybody is welcome until
proven not.

The non-personal part of the discussion should be open for everybody.
Here, I agree with Lars that the "secret meeting" (his words) held at
Stylite last year is pretty strange; maybe I missed it, but I never
heard from that until the discussions started in December.

Other that that, I must say Ralf is acting in a very professional way,
although I do not always agree with him.
Lars is not (sorry Lars), but that also doesn't have to do with anything
with agreeing or not; it's just that the discussion isn't about a proof
of concept anymore.

Tine looks promising to me. In earlier mails I wrote my opinion is not
that important considering my modest role, but I changed my mind. Not
only am I a user, every minute I invest in development, is a minute of
my spare time, it doesn't matter other people contribute much more; I
don't get paid a penny so I'm doing this for fun.
If my input is not important anymore, make eGroupWare a commercial
product, let Tine compete with it and we'll all see what happens.

So, what's this all about?
Developers of eGroupWare have chosen a new path and they want that as a
part of eGroupWare.
I seem to remember, several developers came up with ideas for apps they
wanted to implement, and you know what; they did and everybody was
happy.

A few days ago Ralf announced new VFS classes. Current users work with
MyDMS and/or Filemanager. Can they still use it in the future? Will it
all be compatible?  I didn't see a call for vote.
I once worked on TTS. Then the project (not me!) announced it would be
obsolete. I started working on a successor which had to be compatible,
until suddenly Ralf announced Tracker; all my work down the drain, and
it wasn't even compatible. I never saw a call for vote.
The Tine guys announced a new UI and API. Current users like the
functionality of eGW. What's gonna happen with everything they build up
over the years? No one's waiting for a complete re-implementation. The
Tine guys promised it would be compatible, so why do we need a vote?

Tine is a part of eGroupWare simply because some of the core developers
say it is.
I could have made the choice to keep on supporting TTS, simply because I
was (at that stage) its developer.

I know it's a different situation with Tine, because in the end it's not
possible to maintain 2 codelines. Therefore, I fully agree with the
decision eGroupWare 2.0 wasn't the proper name, but there's nevertheless
the fact, people are working on the improvement of the product. It
happened before; the reason TTS ain't supported aymore is, it's not
compatible with the new API, and who ever made that decision? Admins?
The majority of the (core) developers?

So what to do now?
Let the Tine guys make press releases as much as they like; don't
consider it a sub-project, but a proof of concept for eGroupWare. That
way, all attention for Tine is attention for eGroupWare.
Also, Tine should be in the eGW trunk, to allow other developers to
'port' their apps to the Tine API.
In the current situation, we're all keeping up appearances, but in fact
Tine already is a fork.


My 2cents,
Oscar


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
_______________________________________________
eGroupWare-core mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/egroupware-core
Lutz Falkenburg (irrsinn.de gmbh) Lutz Falkenburg (irrsinn.de gmbh)
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: more Tine press releases, violating the status quo

In reply to this post by Lars Kneschke-2

Am 09.02.2008 um 11:00 schrieb Lars Kneschke:

"Manfred Usselmann" <[hidden email]> schrieb:
Read your own press release again. It doesn't contain the word
'experimental'. Instead you emphasize 'official subproject' several
times and thereby create the false impression that the decision, that
Tine will be the future technological base of eGW, has already been
made by the project as a whole.
Ok. That's an impression. But that was not our intention. There are several
places where we state very clearly, that we are yet experimental. And we
also did not state that we are the future code base for eGroupWare. We also
call us Tine 2.0. And not eGroupWare 2.0 anymore.

Lars, this was the beginning of your propaganda:


And there are no excuses or some text to correct the manipulating information from your side.
If I kill someone, telling I will do it again, this keeps me not away from the point that I responsible!




I really appreciate your effort to modernize eGW, but IMO you should
also take into account that the other project members, who are not yet
fully convinced of your proposal, need some kind of protection of their
investment into the existing framework. This is essential and it would
be good if you could stop ignoring this. And it is also to your own
advantage if the customers are still using eGW at the time when Tine
may be ready for productive use. It's not good if you base all your
decisions on the displeasing quarrel which occurred.

Full Ack!



Just have look at the time line again. We had a meeting with Ralf and Nigel
to talk about how we can improve the current codebase. It was our intention
to work on eGroupWare 1.4. They rejected our ideas in general and insulted
us. That's the reason why have started Tine 2.0.

You did not started Tine 2.0 (look above at your own press release an read it if you should have forgotten your own words)- Tine 2.0 was your correction of the overtaking process you started because of personal differences!

There would have been no
Tine 2.0 project and no discussion, if they would not have rejected our
ideas in general. They would not have to protect their investments, because
we had been improving their investments.
I don't ignore their investments, but I can also not ignore my investments,
if you like to call it like that.

Nice - now we come to real deal!


They also stated that are still working on eGroupWare 1.x codeline. Of
course this situation is strange. But the project admins can't solve the
problem, by simply ignoring Tine 2.0.

And so the tine 2.0 members using every chance they get to keep up preasure upon the admins and the project - that is truly a very good way :)




IMO eGW indeed needs a double-track approach, but members of both
groups really should consider the interests of the opposite side as
well. Please don't act against each other, but settle your differences,
make agreements with the necessary allowances and stick to them. The
project has only a chance of you build the future together.
I'm very open to any agreement. As long as it does not mean, that we need
get invisible again. We are also part of the eGroupWare project.


Yes, but why you accepted a agreement before when you already planed to work against...? In my opinion you are not willing to accept any agreement that did you not let control the whole community. Start playing with open cards. 

I would appreciate a redesign of egroupware like the most other users but this can not be done if the people behind this project working against the whole or parts of the other members and users with disinformation, propaganda and tricks.

So apologize, take a step back and start more professional. What you are doing are promising everything, showing just a frontend looking more modern but not more usefully then the old one. What I have seen is mostly without color, small letters and without a clear usuability concept. Hacking some codelines, combining some libraries is nothing without a clear usability concept. Technic and Database hatricks are not everything :)

Lutz

PS: Do you think it is possible throwing all personal resentments away, starting from scratch? Trying to discuss professional? I am willing to do so. But not only technically more in the way to get the project more stable and keep the user needs in mind. Probably we should hold a conference somewhere personally or a telco discussing as long as we get a conclusion. BUT be warned everybody will have to make compromises (me too) :)


--
Lars Kneschke
CTO OfficeSpot.Net
Metaways Infosystems GmbH
Pickhuben 2-4, D-20457 Hamburg

eGroupWare Support: http://www.egroupware-support.net
OfficeSpot.Net Collaboration Server: http://cs.officespot.net
our proposal for the next major eGroupWare release: http://www.tine20.org

E-Mail: [hidden email]
Web: http://www.metaways.de
Tel: +49 (0)40 317031-21
Fax: +49 (0)40 317031-921
Mobile: +49 (0)175 9304324

Metaways Infosystems GmbH - Sitz: D-22967 Tremsbüttel
Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Ahrensburg HRB 4508
Geschäftsführung: Hermann Thaele, Lüder-H.Thaele



-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
_______________________________________________
eGroupWare-core mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/egroupware-core

irrsinn.de gmbh
Im Dorfe 38
99489 Hottelstedt
 
Fon: 036452/18954
Fax: 036452/18956
 
http://www.irrsinn.de
eMail: [hidden email]
 
Eingetragen beim AG Jena HRB 113980
Geschäftsführer: Lutz Falkenburg

IT-Antiquariat mit Garantie: http://www.irrsinn.de/shop
40.000 Artikel vorrätig: http://www.irrsinn.liefert-es.com
Wir beseitigen E-Müll: http://www.defendix.net


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
_______________________________________________
eGroupWare-core mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/egroupware-core
Lars Kneschke-2 Lars Kneschke-2
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: more Tine press releases, violating the status quo

In reply to this post by ManfredU
"Manfred Usselmann" <[hidden email]> schrieb:
> You mentioned that you need to postpone this presentation.
> Maybe you can give us some more details and explain the situation a
> little bit? Have you come across any unforeseen technical issues?
Not yet. So far everything looks promising. We even have the first customer
who is working on a Tine 2.0 based installation.

> Or is
> it just a minor delay as a result of the usual time restraints we all
> suffer from from time to time?
Yes.

> When do you expect it to become ready according to your current planning?
I'm not sure. At least not this month.

> I myself would also be interested to know what exactly to expect from
> your prototype. What are your criteria which define the readiness for
> the discussion and voting? What do you want to achieve until then?
The longer I have been thinking about this topic, the less sure I'm about
what we should vote.

Should we vote about which code line to use? That makes not much sense to
me. Have a look at the pERP and BlueERP developers. They have bet their
whole application on eTemplate. As long Ralf will not migrate eTemplate,
these developers can only vote against our complete proposal, as they need
to protect their investment too.

Maybe we can vote if Tine 2.0 will be the technical base for eGroupWare 2.0.
That would make sense maybe. As it would allow us to continue to improve
Tine 2.0 and share as much as possible code in the distant future with the
eGroupWare codeline.

Do we need to vote at all about the old codebase against Tine 2.0? We need
to find a way how we can work together. Not to vate against each other. We
need to find common technical goals and solutions. And that's something Tine
2.0 is very good for. It's working code. You can have a look at and learn
how we can improve the old eGroupWare 1.x codebase.
The current codebase of eGroupWare 1.x is broken by design, if you apply the
standards from today. It was good for PHP3 and PHP4, but compared with the
possibilities PHP5 (and PHP6 in the future) can provide us, it is just
broken. Any developer can have a look at our codebase, to learn how we can
make it better.

These ideas don't mean that we fear the vote. If the developers decide
against our codebase, we have no problem with that decision.

What do we like to achieve?
- future-proof codebase
- codebase which uses standard PHP designpatterns
- PHP5 codebase
- unit tests are very important for us
- common rules how to write/format the code
- get the javascript gui done
- database setup
- maybe something more



--
Lars Kneschke
CTO OfficeSpot.Net
Metaways Infosystems GmbH
Pickhuben 2-4, D-20457 Hamburg

eGroupWare Support: http://www.egroupware-support.net
OfficeSpot.Net Collaboration Server: http://cs.officespot.net
our proposal for the next major eGroupWare release: http://www.tine20.org

E-Mail: mailto:[hidden email]
Web: http://www.metaways.de
Tel: +49 (0)40 317031-21
Fax: +49 (0)40 317031-921
Mobile: +49 (0)175 9304324

Metaways Infosystems GmbH - Sitz: D-22967 Tremsbüttel
Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Ahrensburg HRB 4508
Geschäftsführung: Hermann Thaele, Lüder-H.Thaele



-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
_______________________________________________
eGroupWare-core mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/egroupware-core
Lutz Falkenburg (irrsinn.de gmbh) Lutz Falkenburg (irrsinn.de gmbh)
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: more Tine press releases, violating the status quo

Could it be that egw-core list is not any more in sync with nabble? And why we are getting answers from lars to mails from manfred but not the mails from manfred to the core-list?

Regards Lutz


Am 09.02.2008 um 14:30 schrieb Lars Kneschke:

"Manfred Usselmann" <[hidden email]> schrieb:
You mentioned that you need to postpone this presentation.
Maybe you can give us some more details and explain the situation a
little bit? Have you come across any unforeseen technical issues?
Not yet. So far everything looks promising. We even have the first customer
who is working on a Tine 2.0 based installation.

Or is
it just a minor delay as a result of the usual time restraints we all
suffer from from time to time?
Yes.

When do you expect it to become ready according to your current planning?
I'm not sure. At least not this month.

I myself would also be interested to know what exactly to expect from
your prototype. What are your criteria which define the readiness for
the discussion and voting? What do you want to achieve until then?
The longer I have been thinking about this topic, the less sure I'm about
what we should vote.

Should we vote about which code line to use? That makes not much sense to
me. Have a look at the pERP and BlueERP developers. They have bet their
whole application on eTemplate. As long Ralf will not migrate eTemplate,
these developers can only vote against our complete proposal, as they need
to protect their investment too.

Maybe we can vote if Tine 2.0 will be the technical base for eGroupWare 2.0.
That would make sense maybe. As it would allow us to continue to improve
Tine 2.0 and share as much as possible code in the distant future with the
eGroupWare codeline.

Do we need to vote at all about the old codebase against Tine 2.0? We need
to find a way how we can work together. Not to vate against each other. We
need to find common technical goals and solutions. And that's something Tine
2.0 is very good for. It's working code. You can have a look at and learn
how we can improve the old eGroupWare 1.x codebase.
The current codebase of eGroupWare 1.x is broken by design, if you apply the
standards from today. It was good for PHP3 and PHP4, but compared with the
possibilities PHP5 (and PHP6 in the future) can provide us, it is just
broken. Any developer can have a look at our codebase, to learn how we can
make it better.

These ideas don't mean that we fear the vote. If the developers decide
against our codebase, we have no problem with that decision.

What do we like to achieve?
- future-proof codebase
- codebase which uses standard PHP designpatterns
- PHP5 codebase
- unit tests are very important for us
- common rules how to write/format the code
- get the javascript gui done
- database setup
- maybe something more



--
Lars Kneschke
CTO OfficeSpot.Net
Metaways Infosystems GmbH
Pickhuben 2-4, D-20457 Hamburg

eGroupWare Support: http://www.egroupware-support.net
OfficeSpot.Net Collaboration Server: http://cs.officespot.net
our proposal for the next major eGroupWare release: http://www.tine20.org

E-Mail: [hidden email]
Web: http://www.metaways.de
Tel: +49 (0)40 317031-21
Fax: +49 (0)40 317031-921
Mobile: +49 (0)175 9304324

Metaways Infosystems GmbH - Sitz: D-22967 Tremsbüttel
Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Ahrensburg HRB 4508
Geschäftsführung: Hermann Thaele, Lüder-H.Thaele



-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
_______________________________________________
eGroupWare-core mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/egroupware-core

irrsinn.de gmbh
Im Dorfe 38
99489 Hottelstedt
 
Fon: 036452/18954
Fax: 036452/18956
 
http://www.irrsinn.de
eMail: [hidden email]
 
Eingetragen beim AG Jena HRB 113980
Geschäftsführer: Lutz Falkenburg

IT-Antiquariat mit Garantie: http://www.irrsinn.de/shop
40.000 Artikel vorrätig: http://www.irrsinn.liefert-es.com
Wir beseitigen E-Müll: http://www.defendix.net


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
_______________________________________________
eGroupWare-core mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/egroupware-core
Lars Kneschke-2 Lars Kneschke-2
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: more Tine press releases, violating the status quo

In reply to this post by Lutz Falkenburg (irrsinn.de gmbh)
"Lutz Falkenburg" <[hidden email]> schrieb:

> PS: Do you think it is possible throwing all personal resentments  
> away, starting from scratch? Trying to discuss professional? I am  
> willing to do so. But not only technically more in the way to get the  
> project more stable and keep the user needs in mind. Probably we  
> should hold a conference somewhere personally or a telco discussing as  
> long as we get a conclusion. BUT be warned everybody will have to make  
> compromises (me too) :)

As most of the readers on this list, don't read the german list, they don't
know, that Cornelius and me don't answer to any of Lutz's email anymore.

This is also on this list the last response to Lutz.

Lutz, you have nothing to offer we can make a compromise about. You want to
use my code. I want nothing from you. I don't see any reason why I should
try to find a compromise with you.

I'm open to any compromises. But not with you. Help yourself.
--
Lars Kneschke
CTO OfficeSpot.Net
Metaways Infosystems GmbH
Pickhuben 2-4, D-20457 Hamburg

eGroupWare Support: http://www.egroupware-support.net
OfficeSpot.Net Collaboration Server: http://cs.officespot.net
our proposal for the next major eGroupWare release: http://www.tine20.org

E-Mail: mailto:[hidden email]
Web: http://www.metaways.de
Tel: +49 (0)40 317031-21
Fax: +49 (0)40 317031-921
Mobile: +49 (0)175 9304324

Metaways Infosystems GmbH - Sitz: D-22967 Tremsbüttel
Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Ahrensburg HRB 4508
Geschäftsführung: Hermann Thaele, Lüder-H.Thaele



-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
_______________________________________________
eGroupWare-core mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/egroupware-core
12